The Debate Over the Ground Zero Mosque: Our Region Speaks Out
August 23rd, 2010
(482 views )
Should the Mosque Be Moved?
Comments, Pingbacks:
Comment from: Mike Q [Visitor]
Yikes! I have some catching up to do.
“Mike Q: Don't be so naive what Obama is allowing the Bilderbergers to do on the left side may be the polar opposite what the Bush militarist faction did on the right but we are all being herded quite quickly into a New World Order.”-John
Maybe I’m naïve, but this is how I see things re Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, New World Order, activist UN, etc: Past presidents signed bills put together by past congresses. Past courts gave their slant on existing laws from past eras. In all the analyses of these things,-how they have affected our lives and institutions,-nowhere does any historian that I know of complain that some cabal has altered the expected course of events in these matters.
Talk of “secret” cabals, that are so widely covered on the net that few people haven’t heard of them, that supposedly have been around for so long with apparently no effect that one has to wonder if they’re completely incompetent or extremely far-sighted and patient or just imaginary,-this talk is quite the perfect diversion from the tedious and frustrating but real-world work of bettering the country a bit at a time via the dirty and flawed only-game-in-town political process,-quite the perfect excuse to give up and not patiently parse the incongruities and irrationalities and studied, cynical frames of the opposition and maybe chip away at their undue public sway. Easier to be in awe of a shadow. (And of such a long run-on sentence!)
Legends of secret societies that have profoundly channeled human history along paths of control make blockbuster movies because so many people are fascinated by this aura of hidden things. Everyman Ralph Cramden (“The Honeymooners”) soothed his itch during his monthly lodge meetings with its secret handshakes and no-girls-allowed sense of control. Whoever is behind closed doors is imagined as having extraordinary power and freedom from normal restrictions. Their actions somehow, it’s thought, never leave a trail or bump up against legitimate efforts, and no radar ever picks up those black helicopters dashing hither and thither in the dark because they’re “secret.”
The narrative about these entities sets up their will-o-the-wisp elusiveness and nigh on complete control of the world, which releases us from responsibility for what happens around us, because, after all, they’re too powerful for us to challenge. Those fighters in the trenches are the ones facing things squarely and somewhat effectively,-the surviving and recuperating labor unions, the temporarily sucker-punched ACORN,-really anyone who faces off squarely against the relentlessly ruthless and conscienceless anti-social self-interests of finance and political partisanship,-anywhere society is the “enemy” of the individualists and these individuals don’t seem to see that society is made up of people who may see themselves as magically self-sufficient but actually are dependent on the collective. As long as individualism is sacrosanct and patriotically de rigeur, society is fragmented and oligarchs rule us.
Enough about that. About immigration: Not one of us had the foresight to choose to be born in America. We were not smarter or better or more deserving of being a citizen than any Mexican. This “I got mine, so screw the rest of you” crap is unbecoming. Do you trust the church? Because it considers that God created the world for all of us, not just a privileged few.
In addition to these aspects of the right’s sense of privileged status driving their animosity toward immigrants, it’s also the cultural nature of the particular immigrants in question that furthers this animosity. Ever since Ronald Reagan the white middle class has been told that “racism is over; it is minorities who now have too much power; they are stealing your jobs, your future.” (All quotes are from THE NATION magazine Aug 16/23, 2010.) The Latinos we’re supposed to hate “come from countries where democracy means social democracy, including workers’ rights, welfare and economic justice.” So the right’s fight against Latino immigrants has a lot to do with with “the role Latinos would play in burying, once and for all, the Southern strategy,” which would bury, once and for all, conservative Republican prospects of political viability. Anti-immigrant is anti-Democratic.
Past immigration reform has made legal immigration quite difficult, and has made it easy to deport people who were permanent legal residents with citizen children, resulting in the deportation of American citizens innocent of any crime. Past reform “disqualified most immigrants, including most permanent legal residents, from receiving almost all forms of public assistance and imposed a five year waiting period on applications for assistance on all future immigrants.”
Immigrant kids “are more likely to live with two parents and to have a father in the home who is working full time, year round, than children in nonimmigrant families.” It’s only when they’ve been fully Americanized that families become dysfunctional and gangs form and they have trouble finding jobs. Assimilation isn’t all that great a thing, it seems.
“In an era when even the president is called upon to show his papers,” anti-immigrant groups publish lists of illegal immigrants, complete with Social Security numbers. These supposedly parasitic illegals are contributing to your and my social safety nets without much likelihood of being able to enjoy these protections themselves.
Long out-of-work Americans could be starting to receive paychecks by now if politicians on the right stopped blocking spending on jobs creation, and politicians on the left stopped being terrified of a citizen or two calling them tyrants if they pushed for a massive windmill-building project that would open abandoned factory buildings, revitalize decayed communities, and put untold numbers of people to work for years to come. Politics long ago stopped being oppositional for the sake of keeping politicians responsive and competitive, and became a war for the sake of destroying the other side and the country be damned. But citizen protests, that in the 1960s threatened consumerism and unquestioning obedience to authority, are now co-opted by the right for its use, leaving protest suspicious and smelly. Tea party followers tend toward the Palin/Beck narratives, and as such are not sufficiently representative of the populace.
Last topic not covered yet: Islamoconfusion. So many of the comments from the right say that the Saudis wouldn’t let Christians build a church where they pleased, so why should we let Muslims have their community center where they want. Dive down to the level of the other side instead of rising above it. We are not Saudi Arabia. If it actually means something to be America, then let’s not give that up to be as bad as the other guys. This isn’t about polls or majority votes. If it hurts some people too much to be true to constitutional principles, do we throw out the constitution?
“Mike Q: Don't be so naive what Obama is allowing the Bilderbergers to do on the left side may be the polar opposite what the Bush militarist faction did on the right but we are all being herded quite quickly into a New World Order.”-John
Maybe I’m naïve, but this is how I see things re Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, New World Order, activist UN, etc: Past presidents signed bills put together by past congresses. Past courts gave their slant on existing laws from past eras. In all the analyses of these things,-how they have affected our lives and institutions,-nowhere does any historian that I know of complain that some cabal has altered the expected course of events in these matters.
Talk of “secret” cabals, that are so widely covered on the net that few people haven’t heard of them, that supposedly have been around for so long with apparently no effect that one has to wonder if they’re completely incompetent or extremely far-sighted and patient or just imaginary,-this talk is quite the perfect diversion from the tedious and frustrating but real-world work of bettering the country a bit at a time via the dirty and flawed only-game-in-town political process,-quite the perfect excuse to give up and not patiently parse the incongruities and irrationalities and studied, cynical frames of the opposition and maybe chip away at their undue public sway. Easier to be in awe of a shadow. (And of such a long run-on sentence!)
Legends of secret societies that have profoundly channeled human history along paths of control make blockbuster movies because so many people are fascinated by this aura of hidden things. Everyman Ralph Cramden (“The Honeymooners”) soothed his itch during his monthly lodge meetings with its secret handshakes and no-girls-allowed sense of control. Whoever is behind closed doors is imagined as having extraordinary power and freedom from normal restrictions. Their actions somehow, it’s thought, never leave a trail or bump up against legitimate efforts, and no radar ever picks up those black helicopters dashing hither and thither in the dark because they’re “secret.”
The narrative about these entities sets up their will-o-the-wisp elusiveness and nigh on complete control of the world, which releases us from responsibility for what happens around us, because, after all, they’re too powerful for us to challenge. Those fighters in the trenches are the ones facing things squarely and somewhat effectively,-the surviving and recuperating labor unions, the temporarily sucker-punched ACORN,-really anyone who faces off squarely against the relentlessly ruthless and conscienceless anti-social self-interests of finance and political partisanship,-anywhere society is the “enemy” of the individualists and these individuals don’t seem to see that society is made up of people who may see themselves as magically self-sufficient but actually are dependent on the collective. As long as individualism is sacrosanct and patriotically de rigeur, society is fragmented and oligarchs rule us.
Enough about that. About immigration: Not one of us had the foresight to choose to be born in America. We were not smarter or better or more deserving of being a citizen than any Mexican. This “I got mine, so screw the rest of you” crap is unbecoming. Do you trust the church? Because it considers that God created the world for all of us, not just a privileged few.
In addition to these aspects of the right’s sense of privileged status driving their animosity toward immigrants, it’s also the cultural nature of the particular immigrants in question that furthers this animosity. Ever since Ronald Reagan the white middle class has been told that “racism is over; it is minorities who now have too much power; they are stealing your jobs, your future.” (All quotes are from THE NATION magazine Aug 16/23, 2010.) The Latinos we’re supposed to hate “come from countries where democracy means social democracy, including workers’ rights, welfare and economic justice.” So the right’s fight against Latino immigrants has a lot to do with with “the role Latinos would play in burying, once and for all, the Southern strategy,” which would bury, once and for all, conservative Republican prospects of political viability. Anti-immigrant is anti-Democratic.
Past immigration reform has made legal immigration quite difficult, and has made it easy to deport people who were permanent legal residents with citizen children, resulting in the deportation of American citizens innocent of any crime. Past reform “disqualified most immigrants, including most permanent legal residents, from receiving almost all forms of public assistance and imposed a five year waiting period on applications for assistance on all future immigrants.”
Immigrant kids “are more likely to live with two parents and to have a father in the home who is working full time, year round, than children in nonimmigrant families.” It’s only when they’ve been fully Americanized that families become dysfunctional and gangs form and they have trouble finding jobs. Assimilation isn’t all that great a thing, it seems.
“In an era when even the president is called upon to show his papers,” anti-immigrant groups publish lists of illegal immigrants, complete with Social Security numbers. These supposedly parasitic illegals are contributing to your and my social safety nets without much likelihood of being able to enjoy these protections themselves.
Long out-of-work Americans could be starting to receive paychecks by now if politicians on the right stopped blocking spending on jobs creation, and politicians on the left stopped being terrified of a citizen or two calling them tyrants if they pushed for a massive windmill-building project that would open abandoned factory buildings, revitalize decayed communities, and put untold numbers of people to work for years to come. Politics long ago stopped being oppositional for the sake of keeping politicians responsive and competitive, and became a war for the sake of destroying the other side and the country be damned. But citizen protests, that in the 1960s threatened consumerism and unquestioning obedience to authority, are now co-opted by the right for its use, leaving protest suspicious and smelly. Tea party followers tend toward the Palin/Beck narratives, and as such are not sufficiently representative of the populace.
Last topic not covered yet: Islamoconfusion. So many of the comments from the right say that the Saudis wouldn’t let Christians build a church where they pleased, so why should we let Muslims have their community center where they want. Dive down to the level of the other side instead of rising above it. We are not Saudi Arabia. If it actually means something to be America, then let’s not give that up to be as bad as the other guys. This isn’t about polls or majority votes. If it hurts some people too much to be true to constitutional principles, do we throw out the constitution?
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 14:52
Comment from: Mike G [Visitor] 
The "Q" is back in town!
It's no fun posting, unless I have someone to firmly disagree with.
Welcome back!
It's no fun posting, unless I have someone to firmly disagree with.
Welcome back!
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 14:59
Comment from: Patti Jackson [Visitor]
Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City. Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia. In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca.
And they lecture us about tolerance.
If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign.
We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history.
Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources.
America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could.
And they lecture us about tolerance.
If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign.
We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history.
Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources.
America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could.
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 18:07
Comment from: Patty [Visitor]
Lets put this in perspective here. Building a Mosque at Ground Zero is like putting a statue of Hitler next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. How about the KKK putting up a center next to the Freedom Walkway in Atlanta Georgia.
This has nothing to do with religion it has to do with total disrepect. If the leader of the Islamic church was a Godly man he would have the respect to build the center outside of New York City.
Also, you mirrored what occured 9/11 to one man snapping in a church and shooting people. For the record, this was not one terrorist who went crazy, it is a very large group of Islamic extremists that continues to grow each day killing our Service men who are fighting for the non extremist Islamic population. People seem to forget that, shame on you.
This has nothing to do with religion it has to do with total disrepect. If the leader of the Islamic church was a Godly man he would have the respect to build the center outside of New York City.
Also, you mirrored what occured 9/11 to one man snapping in a church and shooting people. For the record, this was not one terrorist who went crazy, it is a very large group of Islamic extremists that continues to grow each day killing our Service men who are fighting for the non extremist Islamic population. People seem to forget that, shame on you.
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 18:48
Comment from: John [Visitor]
Regarding Islamophobia:
Is it in America? Absolutely. It is however Muslims that have brought this upon the name of Islam. Not Americans. It was in the name of Allah that our land was attacked. Not Hashem, not Jesus, but Allah.
While there are many peaceful Muslims and who (thank God) constitute the majority of Muslims in America the root of this issue lies solely with how each individual Muslim views and interprets what he or she reads in the Quran.
The Quran in many many verses plainly teaches outright brutal violence against any people who are not believers in Allah or do not submit to the religion of Islam.
2 verses for a quick reference are Sura 9:5 and Sura 5:33 which state...
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Ali, A. Y. (2004). The meaning of the Holy Qur'an (Electronic version.).
Ie. Convert to Islam or die.
33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Ali, A. Y. (2004). The meaning of the Holy Qur'an (Electronic version.).
There are Muslims like the Times Square bomber, the underwear bomber, Al Quaeda, people who convert to Islam who take these verses of the Quran seriously and proceed to carry them out. They are here in this country and at this moment are being trained in our own airports, jobs etc. for one reason. The spread of Islam and the domination of its religion in our country through the institution of Sharia law.
You may want to study the history of Cordoba Spain and its relation to Islam to better understand the reasoning why it is the "Cordoba Institue" that is wanting to build this mosque at Ground Zero.
Regards,
Is it in America? Absolutely. It is however Muslims that have brought this upon the name of Islam. Not Americans. It was in the name of Allah that our land was attacked. Not Hashem, not Jesus, but Allah.
While there are many peaceful Muslims and who (thank God) constitute the majority of Muslims in America the root of this issue lies solely with how each individual Muslim views and interprets what he or she reads in the Quran.
The Quran in many many verses plainly teaches outright brutal violence against any people who are not believers in Allah or do not submit to the religion of Islam.
2 verses for a quick reference are Sura 9:5 and Sura 5:33 which state...
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Ali, A. Y. (2004). The meaning of the Holy Qur'an (Electronic version.).
Ie. Convert to Islam or die.
33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Ali, A. Y. (2004). The meaning of the Holy Qur'an (Electronic version.).
There are Muslims like the Times Square bomber, the underwear bomber, Al Quaeda, people who convert to Islam who take these verses of the Quran seriously and proceed to carry them out. They are here in this country and at this moment are being trained in our own airports, jobs etc. for one reason. The spread of Islam and the domination of its religion in our country through the institution of Sharia law.
You may want to study the history of Cordoba Spain and its relation to Islam to better understand the reasoning why it is the "Cordoba Institue" that is wanting to build this mosque at Ground Zero.
Regards,
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 18:49
Comment from: John [Visitor]
Also wanted to add ... there is no way of distinguishing which Muslim's take verses like those seriously and those who do not ... that is until they show up at Times Square in an SUV loaded with explosives.
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 18:54
Comment from: Kevin [Visitor]
I agree with the comment above. Another good point brought up by another caller is I never see Muslims running to the aid when there is a natural disaster. The Christian, Baptist, Jewish, Catholics, Protestants, etc all pitch in to help out in a natural disaster such as Katrina. So if they want to blend in with Americans, they need to start acting like Americans. Americans are the most compassionate, caring and charitable people. Pray for the victims of 9/11. God Bless everyone.
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 18:57
Comment from: diana [Visitor]
If you think for one second that there were only 19 crazy Islams that attacked our country, then you have your head in the sand. Yes, America is afraid of people that purposely and calcualtingly attacked our loved ones. Iy just happens to have been Islams. There is a Mosque less than SEVEN MINUTES away from Ground Zero on Allen Street. Why do we need another Mosque so close to a site that has tremdous heartbreaking memories for thousands of people worldwide? There are other Mosques throughout Manhattan and the other Boroughs. No one is preventing anyone their religious freedom. Everyone has a right to pray. BUT, you would not have a building celebraing Hitler in Borough Park or a White Supremist Building that supports the KKK in the middle of Harlem. That would a slap in the face to those that have suffered. This is NO different. The Mosque should be built some place else out of respect to the loved ones that died, the loved ones that have never been recovered and which are still buried at this site; and for all of us living that are still suffering! This is being forced onto so many people that are not healed and that still have raw feelings.
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 19:04
Comment from: fred [Visitor]
JOHN:
THIS LINK IS FOR YOU!
Raw Story/Greatest Depression
read text/see video at botto
THIS LINK IS FOR YOU!
Raw Story/Greatest Depression
read text/see video at botto
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 19:45
Comment from: Mike G [Visitor]
If you watched the RNN broadcast you would have walked away scratching your head, trying to understand the implied, as well as stated “fuzzy math“:
1) The 19 Islamic terrorists who attacked us, are the only Islamic terrorists.
2) The 19 Islamic terrorists who attacked us, are equal to a few people who shot up Christian churches.
3) Disagreement with the Mosque is because of fear, hatred and racism.
4) Disagreement with the Mosque is because of Republicans, who are fueling the fire during an election year.
5) Richard French is equal to the voice of reason.
Another very similar equation is: 2+2=5
1) The 19 Islamic terrorists who attacked us, are the only Islamic terrorists.
2) The 19 Islamic terrorists who attacked us, are equal to a few people who shot up Christian churches.
3) Disagreement with the Mosque is because of fear, hatred and racism.
4) Disagreement with the Mosque is because of Republicans, who are fueling the fire during an election year.
5) Richard French is equal to the voice of reason.
Another very similar equation is: 2+2=5
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 20:56
Comment from: Big Bob [Visitor] · http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded
Three things about Islam
Permalink 08/23/10 @ 21:11
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
MikeG, Caspian, MikeQ, robert, Mags, Maggie Mama, Big Bob, fred:
I've got some great BRAND NEW AND COMPELLING stuff for you on why the Fed must be dismantled. Take the time so that you will "know"... and never be fooled by MSM ever again.
1. Start with this- Who is Bankrupt???
Dylan Ratigan explains in detail w/ Eliot Spitzer
http://vodpod.com/watch/3225144-msnbc-com-lehman-brothers-the-next-enron
2.Then you will be fully prepared to watch the whole skinny on Lehman Brothers, the Fed, and the rest of the gaggle of beasts in this brilliant 2009 BBC reanactment that will finally shake you and the rest of those who remain so fixated on Fannie & Freddie.
Gail, Mags, Maggie Mama, fred, Big Bob, this will get to you guys down to your very core. DONT MISS IT! 1HR FIRST YOU MUST Download CNet to view the whole version, if you didn't watch it on MSNBC last night As much as I have projected my own knowledge on the topic for the last 7yrs of the The Bush GoBust economy you will clearly see that Ratgan and this flick completley validates and elucidates all of my reasonings. This thing really shook me. See if any of you can still side with the bankers, and the Federal Reserve after watching these blood sucking vultures in action.
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational_and_howto/watch/v19461767eFHQh4Nx
-------------
3. I found this entwined in between those two eye openers.
-The Video that Will Put Geithner Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm16m_KNck&feature=fvw
I'LL TALK TO YOU GUYS LATER!!!
Caspian this is as good as it gets. I believe that if everyone sent copies of these three videos to all those who are altering and screwing up the bills in Congress they would all stop dead in their tracks in an instant.
Everyone else, let me know what you think.
I've got some great BRAND NEW AND COMPELLING stuff for you on why the Fed must be dismantled. Take the time so that you will "know"... and never be fooled by MSM ever again.
1. Start with this- Who is Bankrupt???
Dylan Ratigan explains in detail w/ Eliot Spitzer
http://vodpod.com/watch/3225144-msnbc-com-lehman-brothers-the-next-enron
2.Then you will be fully prepared to watch the whole skinny on Lehman Brothers, the Fed, and the rest of the gaggle of beasts in this brilliant 2009 BBC reanactment that will finally shake you and the rest of those who remain so fixated on Fannie & Freddie.
Gail, Mags, Maggie Mama, fred, Big Bob, this will get to you guys down to your very core. DONT MISS IT! 1HR FIRST YOU MUST Download CNet to view the whole version, if you didn't watch it on MSNBC last night As much as I have projected my own knowledge on the topic for the last 7yrs of the The Bush GoBust economy you will clearly see that Ratgan and this flick completley validates and elucidates all of my reasonings. This thing really shook me. See if any of you can still side with the bankers, and the Federal Reserve after watching these blood sucking vultures in action.
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational_and_howto/watch/v19461767eFHQh4Nx
-------------
3. I found this entwined in between those two eye openers.
-The Video that Will Put Geithner Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm16m_KNck&feature=fvw
I'LL TALK TO YOU GUYS LATER!!!
Caspian this is as good as it gets. I believe that if everyone sent copies of these three videos to all those who are altering and screwing up the bills in Congress they would all stop dead in their tracks in an instant.
Everyone else, let me know what you think.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 02:27
Comment from: fred [Visitor]
JOHN: ANOTHER VIDEO FOR YOU. MIND YOU THIS VIDEO WAS MADE IN 2008.
"The Men Behind Obama"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MouUJNG8f2k
"The Men Behind Obama"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MouUJNG8f2k
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 03:52
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
There is no purposeful meaning that can be attached to having the Mosque on that precise location. For that reasoning alone the Imam should gladly accept a comparable alternate site that can provide all of the other amenities that this particular site would have afforded.
I wouldn't go into that scriptural dialog, lest we have to hear from Bill F and that damned "mote" one more time.
Q- is more than right in his assessment and you all know it. 9/11 never had to happen except for a few things that we know to be true.
The planning and the plotters had a whole lot of inside help.
1. PNAC-(2000) THE NEW PEARL HARBOR(Perle Harbor)
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-tyc8&p=an%20event%20like%20pEARL%20hARBOR%20pnac&type=
2. Aaron Russo's account that the banker knew at least 11months prior to 9/11 that an event would happen and how the war on terror would be a hoax.
3. Jan2001- After being briefed by Pres Clinton and Richard Clarke Bush reverses course issues Executive order prohibiting FBI from apprehending Al Qaeda suspects. ???
4. August memo Bush knew didn't warn FAA. ???
5. Sept 12th Bush lied or did he really see the 1ST PLANE HIT THE WTC. ???
6. The My Pet Goat Alibi
7. Bush clears skies of all domestic travel so that Bin Laden family can escape via Raytheon- private jets" without scrutiny or investigation. ??? Did anybody here say UNFULFILLED NO BID CONTRACTS! The Armies IED PROTECTIONS DELAYED UNTIL 2012. The troops could have had them at the exact time that they were needed for virtually nothing from the israelis.
7. TEN YEARS AFTER 9/11 ALL NYC HAS from the federal government that failed us- IS A HOLE WHERE THE TOWERS ONCE STOOD.
In contrast our bigwigs and MSM taut the wonders of their accomplishments in financing Dubai which built a 160story tower in half the time from the moneys of banking, corporate interests, and foreign treasuries.
Dubai has contracts with Lockheed, Boeing and Airbus to create Dubai AeroSpace as the worlds state of the art leader. WE HAVE 30 YEAR OLD SHIT BUCKETS!
DUBAI STILL CONTROLS OUR PORTS.... OWNS 20% OF NASDAQ... and doesn't have a single commodity or resource backing that would payback any or all of this US & world investment. HOW DID THEY AVOID THE RADAR? UAE ONLY BACKED 10% OF THEIR LOANS THAT MEANS THE REST HAD TO COME FROM THE SKELLS WHO REMAIN SO ADEMANT AND TIGHT FISTED WITH OUR PEOPLE HERE.
Why hasn't anyone in the banking and finance world demanded that they surrender their accrued assets like they do here with us?
STILL WORRIED ABOUT TERRORISM!!! Why should you? Your bankers seem safe with their Islamic partners so much so they've placed everything you once owned on the line for their oasis in DubaiWorld and its location right smack dead center in the middle of what is supposed to be terrorist centrals. Bordered by Yemen, the Sauds and their 3million Wahhabists, Afghanistan, Pakistan and not far off the coast of Somalia. THEY AIN'T WORRIED!
-Dubai is the ponzischeme that has taken the entire worlds wealth for the greed with the stealth and deceptions of a "select" few.
HMMMMMM! WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, HERE!
____________________________
SIBEL EDMUNDS- FBI: REVEALED 9/11 LIES!
SIBEL EDMUNDS- INVESTIGATIONS THWARTED!
SEE WHAT SHE HAS PENDING. SHE KNOWS! NOW YOU WILL KNOW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cm-uRQmfUU
CALL WAXMAN ON PUBLIC HEARINGS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHnIyGWEz_Y&feature=related
I wouldn't go into that scriptural dialog, lest we have to hear from Bill F and that damned "mote" one more time.
Q- is more than right in his assessment and you all know it. 9/11 never had to happen except for a few things that we know to be true.
The planning and the plotters had a whole lot of inside help.
1. PNAC-(2000) THE NEW PEARL HARBOR(Perle Harbor)
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-tyc8&p=an%20event%20like%20pEARL%20hARBOR%20pnac&type=
2. Aaron Russo's account that the banker knew at least 11months prior to 9/11 that an event would happen and how the war on terror would be a hoax.
3. Jan2001- After being briefed by Pres Clinton and Richard Clarke Bush reverses course issues Executive order prohibiting FBI from apprehending Al Qaeda suspects. ???
4. August memo Bush knew didn't warn FAA. ???
5. Sept 12th Bush lied or did he really see the 1ST PLANE HIT THE WTC. ???
6. The My Pet Goat Alibi
7. Bush clears skies of all domestic travel so that Bin Laden family can escape via Raytheon- private jets" without scrutiny or investigation. ??? Did anybody here say UNFULFILLED NO BID CONTRACTS! The Armies IED PROTECTIONS DELAYED UNTIL 2012. The troops could have had them at the exact time that they were needed for virtually nothing from the israelis.
7. TEN YEARS AFTER 9/11 ALL NYC HAS from the federal government that failed us- IS A HOLE WHERE THE TOWERS ONCE STOOD.
In contrast our bigwigs and MSM taut the wonders of their accomplishments in financing Dubai which built a 160story tower in half the time from the moneys of banking, corporate interests, and foreign treasuries.
Dubai has contracts with Lockheed, Boeing and Airbus to create Dubai AeroSpace as the worlds state of the art leader. WE HAVE 30 YEAR OLD SHIT BUCKETS!
DUBAI STILL CONTROLS OUR PORTS.... OWNS 20% OF NASDAQ... and doesn't have a single commodity or resource backing that would payback any or all of this US & world investment. HOW DID THEY AVOID THE RADAR? UAE ONLY BACKED 10% OF THEIR LOANS THAT MEANS THE REST HAD TO COME FROM THE SKELLS WHO REMAIN SO ADEMANT AND TIGHT FISTED WITH OUR PEOPLE HERE.
Why hasn't anyone in the banking and finance world demanded that they surrender their accrued assets like they do here with us?
STILL WORRIED ABOUT TERRORISM!!! Why should you? Your bankers seem safe with their Islamic partners so much so they've placed everything you once owned on the line for their oasis in DubaiWorld and its location right smack dead center in the middle of what is supposed to be terrorist centrals. Bordered by Yemen, the Sauds and their 3million Wahhabists, Afghanistan, Pakistan and not far off the coast of Somalia. THEY AIN'T WORRIED!
-Dubai is the ponzischeme that has taken the entire worlds wealth for the greed with the stealth and deceptions of a "select" few.
HMMMMMM! WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, HERE!
____________________________
SIBEL EDMUNDS- FBI: REVEALED 9/11 LIES!
SIBEL EDMUNDS- INVESTIGATIONS THWARTED!
SEE WHAT SHE HAS PENDING. SHE KNOWS! NOW YOU WILL KNOW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cm-uRQmfUU
CALL WAXMAN ON PUBLIC HEARINGS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHnIyGWEz_Y&feature=related
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 04:55
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor]
Caspian this is as good as it gets. I believe that if everyone sent copies of these three videos to all those who are altering and screwing up the bills in Congress they would all stop dead in their tracks in an instant.
--------------------
John Pure Gold!
This is the root of the Cancer that must be exposed to the masses!
--------------------
John Pure Gold!
This is the root of the Cancer that must be exposed to the masses!
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 08:48
Comment from: John--- [Visitor] · http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
· http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
Caspian: Here are two more platinum plus stay ahead of the curve nuggets for you and the guys.
DIDN'T BUSH KNOW OR LEARN ANYTHING AFTER BEING BRIEFED BY CLINTON, OR WAS HE JUST A COMPLETELY FULL BORE PNAC STOOGE- "OUT TO LUNCH" ALL OF THE TIME.
:: Warning Signs of 9-11 and Intelligence Failures
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
WHAT BUSH JR NEVER TOOK THE TIME TO LEARN FROM HIS FATHER AND FORMER CIA DIRECTOR- WHO NOW RUNS HIS SHOW MASTERMINDING THE FINANCIAL ORCHESTRATIONS OF THE CARLYLE GROUP THAT WREAKS HAVOC IN MARKETS AND TREASURIES ACROSS THE GLOBE.
This may not allow you to access. I may have to print it. MIGHT REVEAL WAY TOO MUCH INSIDER INFO FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION AND BILL F'S LIMITED PROSPECTIVES. Covers everything AlQaeda from stirring the soup to the nuttiness that has been left in charge of our tattered double standard security.
ENTITLED:
****Al Qaeda and the War on Terrorism-
REVEALS WAY TOO MUCH FOR GP CONSUMPTION AND BILL F'S LIMITED PROSPECTIVES.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718
DIDN'T BUSH KNOW OR LEARN ANYTHING AFTER BEING BRIEFED BY CLINTON, OR WAS HE JUST A COMPLETELY FULL BORE PNAC STOOGE- "OUT TO LUNCH" ALL OF THE TIME.
:: Warning Signs of 9-11 and Intelligence Failures
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
WHAT BUSH JR NEVER TOOK THE TIME TO LEARN FROM HIS FATHER AND FORMER CIA DIRECTOR- WHO NOW RUNS HIS SHOW MASTERMINDING THE FINANCIAL ORCHESTRATIONS OF THE CARLYLE GROUP THAT WREAKS HAVOC IN MARKETS AND TREASURIES ACROSS THE GLOBE.
This may not allow you to access. I may have to print it. MIGHT REVEAL WAY TOO MUCH INSIDER INFO FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION AND BILL F'S LIMITED PROSPECTIVES. Covers everything AlQaeda from stirring the soup to the nuttiness that has been left in charge of our tattered double standard security.
ENTITLED:
****Al Qaeda and the War on Terrorism-
REVEALS WAY TOO MUCH FOR GP CONSUMPTION AND BILL F'S LIMITED PROSPECTIVES.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 09:20
Comment from: robert [Visitor]
Whats bothering me is,I know that we all can remember it was only a few weeks ago the hysteria was "the mexicans are coming"Now this "cultural center",BTW I had posted a comment regarding "words" have meaning and in this case the word Mosque as opposed to Cultural Center is being used.
I'm saying all this to say who will be demonized next in the upcoming future?
I'm saying all this to say who will be demonized next in the upcoming future?
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 11:22
Comment from: Pat from PA [Visitor]
As far as I'm concerned GROUND ZERO is SACRED GROUND!
I understand there is a nearby Mosque & many more in the NY area; so why is there a need for another especially one so close to GROUND ZERO - a site that has tremdous heartbreaking memories for thousands of people? Build the Mosque somewhere else!
I understand there is a nearby Mosque & many more in the NY area; so why is there a need for another especially one so close to GROUND ZERO - a site that has tremdous heartbreaking memories for thousands of people? Build the Mosque somewhere else!
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 12:57
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
fred: JOHN:
THIS LINK IS FOR YOU!
Raw Story/Greatest Depression
read text/see video at botto
--------------------------
Was that message left for me John--- or the John entered on this board? Anyway there is no site or text to read. What happened?
THIS LINK IS FOR YOU!
Raw Story/Greatest Depression
read text/see video at botto
--------------------------
Was that message left for me John--- or the John entered on this board? Anyway there is no site or text to read. What happened?
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 13:27
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor]
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
----------
John, there is a multitude of evidence how the Bush administration failed on September 11, 2001.
But the larger question is will Obama investigate or sweep it under the rug like Bill Clinton did with Iran/Contra.
We all know what the answer is.
Business as usual in Washington DC.
----------
John, there is a multitude of evidence how the Bush administration failed on September 11, 2001.
But the larger question is will Obama investigate or sweep it under the rug like Bill Clinton did with Iran/Contra.
We all know what the answer is.
Business as usual in Washington DC.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 14:58
Comment from: fred [Visitor]
U all should be intrested in this!
www.foxnews.com/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead
www.foxnews.com/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:01
Comment from: fred [Visitor]
And This!
Wikpedia.org/St_Nicholas_Greek_Orthodox_Church
Wikpedia.org/St_Nicholas_Greek_Orthodox_Church
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:08
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://postcards.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/11/25/lehman-brothers-presidential-connections/
· http://postcards.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/11/25/lehman-brothers-presidential-connections/
Lehman Brothers' presidential connections
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:21
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/08/27/jeb-bush-lehmans-secret-weapon/
· http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/08/27/jeb-bush-lehmans-secret-weapon/
Jeb Bush: Lehman’s Secret Weapon
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:22
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3046902620070830
· http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3046902620070830
Lehman hires Jeb Bush as private equity advisor
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:24
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://tinyurl.com/cpv5lo
· http://tinyurl.com/cpv5lo
The Biggest Bailout in History: And Why American Taxpayers Should Get Some of the Upside / March 24, 2008 / http://tinyurl.com/yzgsqal
So JP Morgan is raising its offer for Bear Stearns, hmm? Well, it still may be a good deal for old JP, because the worst that can happen is JP loses $1 billion. If losses turn out to be more than $1 billion, the Fed – that is, you and I and every other American taxpayer – will make it up to JP. Who knows what the assets are really worth? They may be worth 80 cents on the dollar, in which case Bear’s stocks are a huge value even at $10 a share (remember, their market price before the panic was around $70 a share). They may be worth 90 cents on the dollar – even better for JP. Or they may eventually (in the long run, when the crisis is over and housing values start trending upward again) be worth far more --- maybe, just maybe, even approaching $70 a share. JP doesn’t know. Bear doesn’t know. The Fed doesn’t know. Everyone is guessing. Bear shareholders are playing a giant game of “chicken.” They’re threatening to go into bankruptcy – that is, liquidate the firm and essentially sell off their assets in an auction – if they don’t get a better deal from JP than the $2 per share JP originally offered.
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2008/03/biggest-bailout-in-history-and-why.html
===========================
The Big Takeover / The Socialist Bailout of Wall Street
The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution
Mar 19, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/cv3me8
It's over — we're officially, royally fucked. No empire can survive being rendered a permanent laughingstock, which is what happened as of a few weeks ago, when the buffoons who have been running things in this country finally went one step too far. It happened when Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was forced to admit that he was once again going to have to stuff billions of taxpayer dollars into a dying insurance giant called AIG, itself a profound symbol of our national decline — a corporation that got rich insuring the concrete and steel of American industry in the country's heyday, only to destroy itself chasing phantom fortunes at the Wall Street card tables, like a dissolute nobleman gambling away the family estate in the waning days of the British Empire.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print
=====================
The Dirty Dozen
Meet the bankers and brokers responsible for the financial crisis - and the officials who let them get away with it / Mar 25, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/cpv5lo
The Enabler ALAN GREENSPAN / The Pioneer SANDY WEILL
The Ideologue PHIL GRAMM / The Arsonist JOE CASSANO
The Bagman ROBERT RUBIN / The Card Shark JIMMY CAYNE / Mr. Buck Passer CHRISTOPHER COX / The Predator ANGELO MOZILO / The Decorator JOHN THAIN / The Maestro HENRY PAULSON / The Big Loser DICK FULD / Mr. Too Big KEN LEWIS /
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26868968/the_dirty_dozen/print
So JP Morgan is raising its offer for Bear Stearns, hmm? Well, it still may be a good deal for old JP, because the worst that can happen is JP loses $1 billion. If losses turn out to be more than $1 billion, the Fed – that is, you and I and every other American taxpayer – will make it up to JP. Who knows what the assets are really worth? They may be worth 80 cents on the dollar, in which case Bear’s stocks are a huge value even at $10 a share (remember, their market price before the panic was around $70 a share). They may be worth 90 cents on the dollar – even better for JP. Or they may eventually (in the long run, when the crisis is over and housing values start trending upward again) be worth far more --- maybe, just maybe, even approaching $70 a share. JP doesn’t know. Bear doesn’t know. The Fed doesn’t know. Everyone is guessing. Bear shareholders are playing a giant game of “chicken.” They’re threatening to go into bankruptcy – that is, liquidate the firm and essentially sell off their assets in an auction – if they don’t get a better deal from JP than the $2 per share JP originally offered.
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2008/03/biggest-bailout-in-history-and-why.html
===========================
The Big Takeover / The Socialist Bailout of Wall Street
The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution
Mar 19, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/cv3me8
It's over — we're officially, royally fucked. No empire can survive being rendered a permanent laughingstock, which is what happened as of a few weeks ago, when the buffoons who have been running things in this country finally went one step too far. It happened when Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was forced to admit that he was once again going to have to stuff billions of taxpayer dollars into a dying insurance giant called AIG, itself a profound symbol of our national decline — a corporation that got rich insuring the concrete and steel of American industry in the country's heyday, only to destroy itself chasing phantom fortunes at the Wall Street card tables, like a dissolute nobleman gambling away the family estate in the waning days of the British Empire.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print
=====================
The Dirty Dozen
Meet the bankers and brokers responsible for the financial crisis - and the officials who let them get away with it / Mar 25, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/cpv5lo
The Enabler ALAN GREENSPAN / The Pioneer SANDY WEILL
The Ideologue PHIL GRAMM / The Arsonist JOE CASSANO
The Bagman ROBERT RUBIN / The Card Shark JIMMY CAYNE / Mr. Buck Passer CHRISTOPHER COX / The Predator ANGELO MOZILO / The Decorator JOHN THAIN / The Maestro HENRY PAULSON / The Big Loser DICK FULD / Mr. Too Big KEN LEWIS /
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26868968/the_dirty_dozen/print
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 15:56
Comment from: Bill F. [Visitor] · http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-gro
· http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-gro
OUTRAGEOUS!
---------------------------------------
- August 18, 2010
Decision Not to Rebuild Church Destroyed on 9/11 Surprises Greek Orthodox Leaders:
Greek Orthodox leaders trying to rebuild the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attacks expressed shock this week after learning, via Fox News, that government officials had declared a deal to relocate the church dead.
Greek Orthodox leaders trying to rebuild the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attacks expressed shock this week after learning, via Fox News, that government officials had killed a deal to relocate the church.
The St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, once a tiny, four-story building in the shadows of lower Manhattan, was destroyed in 2001 by one of the falling World Trade Center towers. Nobody from the church was hurt in the attack, but the congregation has, for the past eight years, been trying to rebuild its house of worship.
Though talks between the church and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey stalled last year, church leaders say they've been trying to kick-start discussions ever since. But amid debate over whether a proposed Islamic community center should go forward near Ground Zero, government officials threw cold water on the prospect of any deal with the church -- telling Fox News the deal is off the table.
Confronted with the Port Authority's verdict, Father Mark Arey, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, said it's the first he's heard that.
"Negotiations did break off last year. We were expecting to hear from their lawyers -- we never did. We're still expecting to hear from them," he told Fox News. "We're disappointed. ... 130 Liberty Street was promised to us."
Arey was referring to the address, about 100 yards away from the original site, where the government earlier proposed relocating the church. The Port Authority and the church announced a deal in July 2008 under which the Port Authority would grant land and up to $20 million to help rebuild the church -- in addition, the authority was willing to pay up to $40 million to construct a bomb-proof platform underneath.
Within a year, the deal fell through and talks ended -- apparently for good, according to the Port Authority.
The archdiocese and Port Authority now offer sharply conflicting accounts of where things went wrong. The Port Authority has claimed the church was making additional demands -- like wanting the $20 million up front and wanting to review plans for the surrounding area. They say the church can still proceed on its own if it wishes.
"St. Nicholas Orthodox Church has always had and will continue to have the right to rebuild on its original location. The question was whether public money would be spent to build a much larger church at a separate location on the site and ensuring that construction wouldn't delay the World Trade Center further," spokesman Stephen Sigmund said in a written statement. "On that question, we worked for many years to reach an agreement and offered up to 60 million dollars of public money to build that much larger new church. After reaching what we believed was an agreement in 2008, representatives of the church wanted even more public commitments, including unacceptable approvals on the design of the Vehicle Security Center that threatened to further delay the construction on the World Trade Center and the potential for another $20 million of public funds."
Sigmund said the "final offer" was made last year, which again included $60 million.
"They rejected that offer," he said.
But Arey said the original site is no good. And archdiocese officials disputed the Port Authority's claims, saying the church has complied with all conditions.
"It's not about money," Arey said. He expressed hope that the project can still be salvaged.
"This little church deserves to be rebuilt. It's symbolic, not just for Orthodox Christians, not just for Christians, but for all Americans," Arey said, calling the mosque debate "helpful" to the church's cause. "I believe that people around the country are asking themselves the question -- why all this talk about a mosque being built near Ground Zero? What about a little church that was destroyed on 9/11? ... This is basically a bureaucratic impasse. This will dissolve in the face of the American public consciousness."
Former New York Gov. George Pataki, who worked with the church as governor, told Fox News on Tuesday that the church should be rebuilt.
George Demos, a Republican candidate for New York's 1st Congressional District, also has drawn attention to the negotiations. He released an open letter to President Obama Tuesday urging him to, as he did with the mosque debate, weigh in on the church discussions.
"While we may disagree on the appropriateness of the mosque, we can surely agree that it is an issue of national importance that the only house of worship actually destroyed on September 11, 2001, the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, be rebuilt," Demos wrote. "Mr. President, please stand up and defend our Judeo-Christian values, express your public and unwavering support for St. Nicholas Church, and ensure that it is rebuilt."
Father Alex Karloutsos, assistant to the head of the Greek Orthodox Church in America, Archbishop Demetrios, told FoxNews.com that the Port Authority "simply forgot about the church" at Ground Zero.
---------------------------------------
- August 18, 2010
Decision Not to Rebuild Church Destroyed on 9/11 Surprises Greek Orthodox Leaders:
Greek Orthodox leaders trying to rebuild the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attacks expressed shock this week after learning, via Fox News, that government officials had declared a deal to relocate the church dead.
Greek Orthodox leaders trying to rebuild the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attacks expressed shock this week after learning, via Fox News, that government officials had killed a deal to relocate the church.
The St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, once a tiny, four-story building in the shadows of lower Manhattan, was destroyed in 2001 by one of the falling World Trade Center towers. Nobody from the church was hurt in the attack, but the congregation has, for the past eight years, been trying to rebuild its house of worship.
Though talks between the church and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey stalled last year, church leaders say they've been trying to kick-start discussions ever since. But amid debate over whether a proposed Islamic community center should go forward near Ground Zero, government officials threw cold water on the prospect of any deal with the church -- telling Fox News the deal is off the table.
Confronted with the Port Authority's verdict, Father Mark Arey, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, said it's the first he's heard that.
"Negotiations did break off last year. We were expecting to hear from their lawyers -- we never did. We're still expecting to hear from them," he told Fox News. "We're disappointed. ... 130 Liberty Street was promised to us."
Arey was referring to the address, about 100 yards away from the original site, where the government earlier proposed relocating the church. The Port Authority and the church announced a deal in July 2008 under which the Port Authority would grant land and up to $20 million to help rebuild the church -- in addition, the authority was willing to pay up to $40 million to construct a bomb-proof platform underneath.
Within a year, the deal fell through and talks ended -- apparently for good, according to the Port Authority.
The archdiocese and Port Authority now offer sharply conflicting accounts of where things went wrong. The Port Authority has claimed the church was making additional demands -- like wanting the $20 million up front and wanting to review plans for the surrounding area. They say the church can still proceed on its own if it wishes.
"St. Nicholas Orthodox Church has always had and will continue to have the right to rebuild on its original location. The question was whether public money would be spent to build a much larger church at a separate location on the site and ensuring that construction wouldn't delay the World Trade Center further," spokesman Stephen Sigmund said in a written statement. "On that question, we worked for many years to reach an agreement and offered up to 60 million dollars of public money to build that much larger new church. After reaching what we believed was an agreement in 2008, representatives of the church wanted even more public commitments, including unacceptable approvals on the design of the Vehicle Security Center that threatened to further delay the construction on the World Trade Center and the potential for another $20 million of public funds."
Sigmund said the "final offer" was made last year, which again included $60 million.
"They rejected that offer," he said.
But Arey said the original site is no good. And archdiocese officials disputed the Port Authority's claims, saying the church has complied with all conditions.
"It's not about money," Arey said. He expressed hope that the project can still be salvaged.
"This little church deserves to be rebuilt. It's symbolic, not just for Orthodox Christians, not just for Christians, but for all Americans," Arey said, calling the mosque debate "helpful" to the church's cause. "I believe that people around the country are asking themselves the question -- why all this talk about a mosque being built near Ground Zero? What about a little church that was destroyed on 9/11? ... This is basically a bureaucratic impasse. This will dissolve in the face of the American public consciousness."
Former New York Gov. George Pataki, who worked with the church as governor, told Fox News on Tuesday that the church should be rebuilt.
George Demos, a Republican candidate for New York's 1st Congressional District, also has drawn attention to the negotiations. He released an open letter to President Obama Tuesday urging him to, as he did with the mosque debate, weigh in on the church discussions.
"While we may disagree on the appropriateness of the mosque, we can surely agree that it is an issue of national importance that the only house of worship actually destroyed on September 11, 2001, the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, be rebuilt," Demos wrote. "Mr. President, please stand up and defend our Judeo-Christian values, express your public and unwavering support for St. Nicholas Church, and ensure that it is rebuilt."
Father Alex Karloutsos, assistant to the head of the Greek Orthodox Church in America, Archbishop Demetrios, told FoxNews.com that the Port Authority "simply forgot about the church" at Ground Zero.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:19
Comment from: Brenda Cibelli [Visitor]
what is it--Iman--you think we Americans are stupd-- first its a mosque, then its a cultural communty center,then Cordoba House--, in honor of the towm in Spain the Muslims conquered ,now its Park 51-- seriously I care more about the feelings of 9/11 families than some Burka womean ,or guys in caftans wanting a place to pray , go to the one on 3rd Ave!!!
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:24
Comment from: C.D. Anderson [Visitor]
We worry about EVERYONE but us. This Country does have the right to practice
its religion or none. Islam builds
tributes at the sites of victories.
Of all the spots to build a Mosque, why
here? I think we are fools if we believe it isn't for exactly that reason. Build the Mosque but for those
who died there and for those loved ones
and friends left behind, respect that
fact and build somewhere else. Respect & Honor the memory of these people who died for no reason. Perhaps
these particular Islamic people are
innocent BUT this is no different than
the feelings Americans had toward Japan
and Germany, Vietnam and Korea during
conflicts with them. I believe the
Islamics that want to build the Mosque
at this location are incensitive and
shame on the politicians at all levels
for getting involved.
its religion or none. Islam builds
tributes at the sites of victories.
Of all the spots to build a Mosque, why
here? I think we are fools if we believe it isn't for exactly that reason. Build the Mosque but for those
who died there and for those loved ones
and friends left behind, respect that
fact and build somewhere else. Respect & Honor the memory of these people who died for no reason. Perhaps
these particular Islamic people are
innocent BUT this is no different than
the feelings Americans had toward Japan
and Germany, Vietnam and Korea during
conflicts with them. I believe the
Islamics that want to build the Mosque
at this location are incensitive and
shame on the politicians at all levels
for getting involved.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:25
Comment from: EastCoast [Visitor]
Big Bob showed the 3 things about Islam that you didn't know in the YouTube video.
Folks, educate yourself. It's not just a religious issue (actually it isn't), It is a Sharia issue. Islam is not a religion, it IS a political and social framework of dominance regarding all issues and aspects of life. Most mosques are built upon sites of former churches and places of forms of conquest. Read the background of the place where the 9-11 mosque and its current name. Why is the Greek orthodox church that was destroyed is not permitted to rebuild? If the Imam want to be a bridge builder, acknowledge the families who lost loved one on that day. Follow the money!
Folks, educate yourself. It's not just a religious issue (actually it isn't), It is a Sharia issue. Islam is not a religion, it IS a political and social framework of dominance regarding all issues and aspects of life. Most mosques are built upon sites of former churches and places of forms of conquest. Read the background of the place where the 9-11 mosque and its current name. Why is the Greek orthodox church that was destroyed is not permitted to rebuild? If the Imam want to be a bridge builder, acknowledge the families who lost loved one on that day. Follow the money!
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:27
Comment from: Ben [Visitor]
It is one thing to oppose the construction of the mosque, but to push for a position of power like Carl Paladino is doing by promising to use EMINENT DOMAIN to STOP the project outright is un-American by definition.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:32
Comment from: Gail [Visitor]
Build a Statue of Liberty in Saudia Arabia, ETC., and then the Muslims can build their NEWEST MOSQUE in New York City. There are 10 ("TEN") multi-million dollar mosques built across the USA ALREADY. This mosque in NYC is just another.
These mosques built across the United States were built by AMERICANS! HOW COME THE NATION DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE MOSQUES? WHO FINANCED THESE OTHER MOSQUES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES?
These mosques built across the United States were built by AMERICANS! HOW COME THE NATION DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE MOSQUES? WHO FINANCED THESE OTHER MOSQUES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES?
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 18:41
Comment from: Ben [Visitor]
"Build a Statue of Liberty in Saudia Arabia, ETC., and then the Muslims can build their NEWEST MOSQUE in New York City."
Gail, the actions and ideas of a coutnry thousands of miles away should NEVER be used as proxy to determine who gets to exercise freedoms as citizens in the U.S. Saudi Arabia != U.S.
[Oh, and Muslim != not a citizen of the U.S]
"There are 10 ("TEN") multi-million dollar mosques built across the USA ALREADY. "
So? If there are no limits to how many Christian Churches, or Jewish Synagogues built, why set an arbitrary restriction at mosques?
"These mosques built across the United States were built by AMERICANS! HOW COME THE NATION DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE MOSQUES? WHO FINANCED THESE OTHER MOSQUES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES?"
And why, pray tell, does ANY of this matter?
Gail, the actions and ideas of a coutnry thousands of miles away should NEVER be used as proxy to determine who gets to exercise freedoms as citizens in the U.S. Saudi Arabia != U.S.
[Oh, and Muslim != not a citizen of the U.S]
"There are 10 ("TEN") multi-million dollar mosques built across the USA ALREADY. "
So? If there are no limits to how many Christian Churches, or Jewish Synagogues built, why set an arbitrary restriction at mosques?
"These mosques built across the United States were built by AMERICANS! HOW COME THE NATION DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE MOSQUES? WHO FINANCED THESE OTHER MOSQUES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES?"
And why, pray tell, does ANY of this matter?
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 19:02
Comment from: Randye [Visitor]
The very fact that there IS a Ground Zero should be the END of this discussion, no?
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 19:17
Comment from: Ben [Visitor]
"The very fact that there IS a Ground Zero should be the END of this discussion, no? "
Noty as long as this is the free country known as America, it doesn't.
Noty as long as this is the free country known as America, it doesn't.
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 19:27
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://tinyurl.com/2eamsqx
· http://tinyurl.com/2eamsqx
Steve Jobs Is Watching You: Apple Seeking to Patent Spyware
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/steve-jobs-watching-you-apple-seeking-patent-0
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/steve-jobs-watching-you-apple-seeking-patent-0
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 20:05
Comment from: Caspian [Visitor] · http://tinyurl.com/yz7kvcv
· http://tinyurl.com/yz7kvcv
CIA Invests in Software Firm Monitoring Blogs, Twitter
October 22, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/yz7kvcv
Wired magazine has revealed the investment arm of the Central Intelligence Agency has invested in a software firm called Visible Technologies that specializes in monitoring social media sites, including blogs, Flickr, YouTube, Twitter and Amazon. Wired reporter Noah Shachtman writes,“America’s spy agencies want to read your blog posts, keep track of your Twitter updates—even check out your book reviews on Amazon.”
October 22, 2009 / http://tinyurl.com/yz7kvcv
Wired magazine has revealed the investment arm of the Central Intelligence Agency has invested in a software firm called Visible Technologies that specializes in monitoring social media sites, including blogs, Flickr, YouTube, Twitter and Amazon. Wired reporter Noah Shachtman writes,“America’s spy agencies want to read your blog posts, keep track of your Twitter updates—even check out your book reviews on Amazon.”
Permalink 08/24/10 @ 20:13
Comment from: Gail [Visitor]
p.S. For the record, the DOLLAR SIGN IS AMERICA'S APPROPRIATE SYMBOL OF LIBERTY AND FREEDOM TODAY, AND PUT THE PRINTING PRESSES THAT PRINT THE MONEY IN PLACE OF THE LINCOLN MUNUMENT IN WASHINGTON, D.C., OR, HOW ABOUT A
A GREEN STATUE OF ALLEN GREENSPAN IN NEW YORK HARBOR?
IN THE BEGINNING WHEN THERE WAS ONLY 'ONE,' THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WAS SACRED AND MEANINGFUL IN THE NEW WORLD CALLED "AMERICA." The Statue of Liberty was 'small' but it was HUGE THEN--IN THE BEGINNING!
IN THIS GLOBAL WORLD, IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY, DOLLAR SIGNS, CACHINE--WHETHER IT IS IN SAUDIA ARABIA, OR THE UNITED STAZTES, E.G., THE STATUE OF LIBERTY IN LAS VEGAS AND IN DISNEYLAND. ANYTHING COMMERCIALLY COPIED CHEAPENS IT. VOILA! COMMERCIALISM! TODAY, A MEANING-LESS TROPHY FROM AMERICA OF DAYS LONG AGO.
ANYONE CAN PURCHASE A MINIATURE STATUE OF LIBERTY ALMOST ANYWHERE, WHEREAS IN THE BEGINNING, COULD ONLY BE PURCHASED IN NEW YORK CITY, AND MAYBE IN THE VERY BEGINNING, ONLY ON ELLIS ISLAND(?). AND AMERICANS MADE THE PILGRIMAGE, ON HORSE BACK, ETC. IN THE BEGINNING, TO STAND IN AWE OF HER BEAUTY AND MEANING AND SACREDNESS IN THE HARBOR FOR WHAT THEY THOUGHT IT MEANT TO THE WORLD, POSTERITY, BACK THEN.
WHAT WOULD THEY THINK TODAY?
A GREEN STATUE OF ALLEN GREENSPAN IN NEW YORK HARBOR?
IN THE BEGINNING WHEN THERE WAS ONLY 'ONE,' THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WAS SACRED AND MEANINGFUL IN THE NEW WORLD CALLED "AMERICA." The Statue of Liberty was 'small' but it was HUGE THEN--IN THE BEGINNING!
IN THIS GLOBAL WORLD, IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY, DOLLAR SIGNS, CACHINE--WHETHER IT IS IN SAUDIA ARABIA, OR THE UNITED STAZTES, E.G., THE STATUE OF LIBERTY IN LAS VEGAS AND IN DISNEYLAND. ANYTHING COMMERCIALLY COPIED CHEAPENS IT. VOILA! COMMERCIALISM! TODAY, A MEANING-LESS TROPHY FROM AMERICA OF DAYS LONG AGO.
ANYONE CAN PURCHASE A MINIATURE STATUE OF LIBERTY ALMOST ANYWHERE, WHEREAS IN THE BEGINNING, COULD ONLY BE PURCHASED IN NEW YORK CITY, AND MAYBE IN THE VERY BEGINNING, ONLY ON ELLIS ISLAND(?). AND AMERICANS MADE THE PILGRIMAGE, ON HORSE BACK, ETC. IN THE BEGINNING, TO STAND IN AWE OF HER BEAUTY AND MEANING AND SACREDNESS IN THE HARBOR FOR WHAT THEY THOUGHT IT MEANT TO THE WORLD, POSTERITY, BACK THEN.
WHAT WOULD THEY THINK TODAY?
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:32
Comment from: Gail [Visitor]
p.S. Is it that Las Vegas--a desert, and Florida--120 degrees and the sun-- have nothing in their state to make any money off of EXCEPT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY IN NEW YORK?
REMEMBER ME?
REMEMBER ME?
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:39
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
Gail: I loved your points on the Statue of Liberty. Makes perfect sense to me.
What do you think you would have thought if the proposed new WTC replacement was the CARLYLE offer to build a tower that would have been financed by the Sauds and the Bin Laden family? Why didn't the Bush Administrations Federal gov't step in with the entire financing of these symbols of liberty, especially since it was his failure that allowed the towers to be breached?
While everyone is so busy now over this mosque proposal which should be sited elsewhere, nobody ever called Papa Bush or Jr over this blatant direct attempt to slap in our faces, that had to be shot down by 9/11 survivors.
What do you think you would have thought if the proposed new WTC replacement was the CARLYLE offer to build a tower that would have been financed by the Sauds and the Bin Laden family? Why didn't the Bush Administrations Federal gov't step in with the entire financing of these symbols of liberty, especially since it was his failure that allowed the towers to be breached?
While everyone is so busy now over this mosque proposal which should be sited elsewhere, nobody ever called Papa Bush or Jr over this blatant direct attempt to slap in our faces, that had to be shot down by 9/11 survivors.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:54
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
Gail: I loved latest your points on the Statue of Liberty. Makes perfect sense to me.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:32
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:39
---
What do you think you would have thought if the proposed new WTC replacement was the CARLYLE offer to build a tower that would have been financed by the Sauds and the Bin Laden family? Why didn't the Bush Administrations Federal gov't step in with the entire financing of these symbols of liberty, especially since it was his failure that allowed the towers to be breached?
While everyone is so busy now over this mosque proposal which should be sited elsewhere, nobody ever called Papa Bush or Jr over this blatant direct attempt to slap in our faces, that had to be shot down by 9/11 survivors.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:32
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:39
---
What do you think you would have thought if the proposed new WTC replacement was the CARLYLE offer to build a tower that would have been financed by the Sauds and the Bin Laden family? Why didn't the Bush Administrations Federal gov't step in with the entire financing of these symbols of liberty, especially since it was his failure that allowed the towers to be breached?
While everyone is so busy now over this mosque proposal which should be sited elsewhere, nobody ever called Papa Bush or Jr over this blatant direct attempt to slap in our faces, that had to be shot down by 9/11 survivors.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 02:58
Comment from: Mike G [Visitor]
So what’s causing all the hysteria and division? The media? The Republicans? Hateful people? No, I believe it is, many of our leaders.
Who created the Tea Party? Dick Armey?
No, it was the Bush administration, by allowing a financial meltdown.
And who is responsible for it’s growth? Sarah Palin?
No, It is Obama’s continued out of control spending AND Pelosi’s untrue remarks.
Who caused the writing of the Arizona Immigration law? The Mexicans?
No, the federal government for not securing our borders.
And who is responsible for fueling strong opposition? Racists?
No, President Obama for taking a stand against one of our United States.
Who is responsible for Islamaphobia? Bigots?
No, it is the Islamic extremists and terrorists.
And who is fueling the fire against the Mosque? The media?
No. it is primarily Bloomberg himself, for taking sides and those unwilling to compromise. The much maligned governor Patterson has shown more leadership then either Bloomberg or Obama by proposing moving the Mosque. Instead, Bloomberg draws a line in the sand causing everyone on both sides to dig in their heels. When our leaders should act as mediators to defuse the issues, they take sides which expands the issues.
So in November why will the Democrats get thrown out? Angry people? Fox news? Good Republicans? The tea party?
No, sadly they have only themselves to blame, nobody else.
Who created the Tea Party? Dick Armey?
No, it was the Bush administration, by allowing a financial meltdown.
And who is responsible for it’s growth? Sarah Palin?
No, It is Obama’s continued out of control spending AND Pelosi’s untrue remarks.
Who caused the writing of the Arizona Immigration law? The Mexicans?
No, the federal government for not securing our borders.
And who is responsible for fueling strong opposition? Racists?
No, President Obama for taking a stand against one of our United States.
Who is responsible for Islamaphobia? Bigots?
No, it is the Islamic extremists and terrorists.
And who is fueling the fire against the Mosque? The media?
No. it is primarily Bloomberg himself, for taking sides and those unwilling to compromise. The much maligned governor Patterson has shown more leadership then either Bloomberg or Obama by proposing moving the Mosque. Instead, Bloomberg draws a line in the sand causing everyone on both sides to dig in their heels. When our leaders should act as mediators to defuse the issues, they take sides which expands the issues.
So in November why will the Democrats get thrown out? Angry people? Fox news? Good Republicans? The tea party?
No, sadly they have only themselves to blame, nobody else.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 10:24
Comment from: Mike Q [Visitor]
Fox keeps shouting "Follow the money!" They know the average Fox viewer will wait for someone else to do this research, while nevertheless passing on the shout. Fox could have told you who the mosque's sugar daddy is, but "curiously" didn't. Well, Jon Stewart followed the money, right up to the feet of Rupert Murdoch's favorite sugar daddy! So the reason Fox didn't just tell you where the money is coming from is because it's coming from Fox's major financial backer. Stewart's crew did a back-and-forth arguing whether Fox is stupid for drawing attention to itself in this oopsie way, or if Fox is evil, with the same diabolicalness of any dark plotter who would finance some dark plot to bring down the United States of America.
Mosques were, in past times of back-and-forth conquest and reconquest by this country or that, this religious crusade or that religious jihad, or whatever, built in the newly conquered land because there were no mosques there, as churches were built in lands newly conquered by Christians. Nothing surprising there, or particularly characteristic of one religion or another.
I know, I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean I haven't read the Bible. And I really can't distinguish between the violent passages found in the Bible and the Koran. I go back and forth between the two books, and I can't see how one is pure love and peace while the other is pure evil hatred and incitement to violence. Maybe it takes a non-believer to see the words as they stand and not as you'd like them to be interpreted.
I'm curious. Would three blocks be far enough from the old WTC? Five? Ten? How sensitive are you to what you choose to find hurtfully insulting? Could you forgive twelve blocks' distance? Would the ghosts of the dead be OK with that?
Anybody know the score? You know, the number of people killed by Muslims compared to the number of people killed by Christians? Did Muslims have a Spanish Inquisition,-four hundred years of religious state-sponsored torture and murder of uncounted thousands of shopkeepers and housewives and greengrocers and herbalists, as the Christians did? Undoubtedly Muslims have killed people. Undoubtedly also, Christians have killed people, vast numbers of people, too often by the cruelest and hatefulest and most gruesome means that deranged minds could imagine. We will deal with murderers as they come, whatever their religion or national origin or gender or sexual orientation or political loyalties. We will not preventively jail people whom we suspect might be capable of murder. Some have said that we (meaning Christian, white Americans) are thoughtful and kind and generous. Some of us (even the atheists) are. But a lot of us lately have been anything but. Just read your words. And follow them to where they came from.
Mosques were, in past times of back-and-forth conquest and reconquest by this country or that, this religious crusade or that religious jihad, or whatever, built in the newly conquered land because there were no mosques there, as churches were built in lands newly conquered by Christians. Nothing surprising there, or particularly characteristic of one religion or another.
I know, I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean I haven't read the Bible. And I really can't distinguish between the violent passages found in the Bible and the Koran. I go back and forth between the two books, and I can't see how one is pure love and peace while the other is pure evil hatred and incitement to violence. Maybe it takes a non-believer to see the words as they stand and not as you'd like them to be interpreted.
I'm curious. Would three blocks be far enough from the old WTC? Five? Ten? How sensitive are you to what you choose to find hurtfully insulting? Could you forgive twelve blocks' distance? Would the ghosts of the dead be OK with that?
Anybody know the score? You know, the number of people killed by Muslims compared to the number of people killed by Christians? Did Muslims have a Spanish Inquisition,-four hundred years of religious state-sponsored torture and murder of uncounted thousands of shopkeepers and housewives and greengrocers and herbalists, as the Christians did? Undoubtedly Muslims have killed people. Undoubtedly also, Christians have killed people, vast numbers of people, too often by the cruelest and hatefulest and most gruesome means that deranged minds could imagine. We will deal with murderers as they come, whatever their religion or national origin or gender or sexual orientation or political loyalties. We will not preventively jail people whom we suspect might be capable of murder. Some have said that we (meaning Christian, white Americans) are thoughtful and kind and generous. Some of us (even the atheists) are. But a lot of us lately have been anything but. Just read your words. And follow them to where they came from.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 15:30
Comment from: Mike G [Visitor]
"And I really can't distinguish between the violent passages found in the Bible and the Koran." -MQ
Mike, I can only speak of my Christian beliefs. Yes, there was a time of violence, of stoning to death, of an eye for an eye. Then Jesus said, "turn the other cheek", "those without sin cast the first stone", "judge not, lest you be judged." If my religion still practiced and believed in the same violence of the old testament today, then I would have to seriously question my Christian values.
"I'm curious. Would three blocks be far enough from the old WTC? Five? Ten? How sensitive are you to what you choose to find hurtfully insulting? Could you forgive twelve blocks' distance? Would the ghosts of the dead be OK with that?"- MQ
For me, it is not the exact distance that matters but simply a willingness by those building the Mosque, to try and understand the sensitivity of this issue and show an effort to compromise by moving further away. They are by no means obligated to do so but their willingness to simply move a few blocks further away, I believe, will win support by many. By refusing to make such a small concession, in the interest of peace, tends to only fuel the fire of division.
Mike, I can only speak of my Christian beliefs. Yes, there was a time of violence, of stoning to death, of an eye for an eye. Then Jesus said, "turn the other cheek", "those without sin cast the first stone", "judge not, lest you be judged." If my religion still practiced and believed in the same violence of the old testament today, then I would have to seriously question my Christian values.
"I'm curious. Would three blocks be far enough from the old WTC? Five? Ten? How sensitive are you to what you choose to find hurtfully insulting? Could you forgive twelve blocks' distance? Would the ghosts of the dead be OK with that?"- MQ
For me, it is not the exact distance that matters but simply a willingness by those building the Mosque, to try and understand the sensitivity of this issue and show an effort to compromise by moving further away. They are by no means obligated to do so but their willingness to simply move a few blocks further away, I believe, will win support by many. By refusing to make such a small concession, in the interest of peace, tends to only fuel the fire of division.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 18:13
Comment from: Kevin [Visitor]
Richard,
It has become evident that only your opinions and the opinions of viewers that agree with you are valid.
Mike G (above) summed it all up with fuzzy math.
Follow the money that funded this Islamic center, just follow the money. Why the hestitance to disclose. I suppose more time to cover it up.
It has become evident that only your opinions and the opinions of viewers that agree with you are valid.
Mike G (above) summed it all up with fuzzy math.
Follow the money that funded this Islamic center, just follow the money. Why the hestitance to disclose. I suppose more time to cover it up.
Permalink 08/25/10 @ 18:55
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
fred: Finally got to view your video. Permalink 08/24/10 @ 03:52
Thank you.
Once again its historian fully supports the DR & Ziggy[BILDERBERG/TRILAT FOUNDERS] both behind and at the controls of all US policy, elections, strategic placements, and economic boondoogles that are plaguing our country and that are likewise prohibiting our nations return to normalcy.
It is only by tying in the failures of "their" foreign policy extravaganzas and "their" ponzi scheming economics- deregulation, "derivitives", trade imbalances, TARP BAILOUTS $3.1TRILLION that "we the people" the middle class and poor have been sucked down into the cesspools of despair over "their" private debt.
Some here want to adopt this debt as if it is our malfeasance but the proofs lay in the pudding. FOLLOW THE MONEY, CALL THEM ON THEIR BLUFFS, AND WATCH THE SNAKES CRAWL AWAY $$$~~~.
Not because they don't believe in their plans because they always leave themselves the option of jumping at a moments notice from left wing radical to right wing zealot- but, because THEY WILL NEVER "WAGER" THEIR OWN CAPITAL, OR TREASURE IN ANY OF THESE FIGHTS AS LONG WE REMAIN STUPID ENOUGH TO BE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM TO TAX AND SPEND OURS.
To them nothing and no one exists above the rank of "expendable" commodity.
To them there is but, one goal and that is "total control" and world dominance by ruling elites.
Thank you.
Once again its historian fully supports the DR & Ziggy[BILDERBERG/TRILAT FOUNDERS] both behind and at the controls of all US policy, elections, strategic placements, and economic boondoogles that are plaguing our country and that are likewise prohibiting our nations return to normalcy.
It is only by tying in the failures of "their" foreign policy extravaganzas and "their" ponzi scheming economics- deregulation, "derivitives", trade imbalances, TARP BAILOUTS $3.1TRILLION that "we the people" the middle class and poor have been sucked down into the cesspools of despair over "their" private debt.
Some here want to adopt this debt as if it is our malfeasance but the proofs lay in the pudding. FOLLOW THE MONEY, CALL THEM ON THEIR BLUFFS, AND WATCH THE SNAKES CRAWL AWAY $$$~~~.
Not because they don't believe in their plans because they always leave themselves the option of jumping at a moments notice from left wing radical to right wing zealot- but, because THEY WILL NEVER "WAGER" THEIR OWN CAPITAL, OR TREASURE IN ANY OF THESE FIGHTS AS LONG WE REMAIN STUPID ENOUGH TO BE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM TO TAX AND SPEND OURS.
To them nothing and no one exists above the rank of "expendable" commodity.
To them there is but, one goal and that is "total control" and world dominance by ruling elites.
Permalink 08/26/10 @ 15:54
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
fred: Finally got to view your video. Permalink 08/24/10 @ 03:52
Thank you.
Once again its historian fully supports the DR & Ziggy[BILDERBERG/TRILAT FOUNDERS] both behind and at the controls of all US policy, elections, strategic placements, and economic boondoogles that are plaguing our country and that are likewise prohibiting our nations return to normalcy.
It is only by tying in the failures of "their" foreign policy extravaganzas and "their" ponzi scheming economics- deregulation, "derivitives", trade imbalances, TARP BAILOUTS $3.1TRILLION that "we the people" the middle class and poor have been sucked down into the cesspools of despair over "their" private debt.
Some here want to adopt this debt as if it is our malfeasance but the proofs lay in the pudding. FOLLOW THE MONEY, CALL THEM ON THEIR BLUFFS, AND WATCH THE SNAKES CRAWL AWAY $$$~~~.
Not because they don't believe in their plans because they always leave themselves the option of jumping at a moments notice from left wing radical to right wing zealot- but, because THEY WILL NEVER WAGER "THEIR OWN CAPITAL", OR "TREASURE" IN ANY OF THESE FIGHTS- AS LONG WE REMAIN STUPID ENOUGH TO BE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM TO TAX AND SPEND OURS.
To them nothing and no one exists above the rank of "expendable" commodity.
To them there is but, one goal and that is "total control" and world dominance by ruling elites.
One of my favorite expressions remains to this day-
"What if "they" threw these war partys and nobody showed up for the dances?
NO CAPITAL OUTFLOW = NO PROFITEERING. THEN THEIR NET WORTH BECOMES INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON OUR PROSPERITY AND WELL BEING HERE AT HOME.
Thank you.
Once again its historian fully supports the DR & Ziggy[BILDERBERG/TRILAT FOUNDERS] both behind and at the controls of all US policy, elections, strategic placements, and economic boondoogles that are plaguing our country and that are likewise prohibiting our nations return to normalcy.
It is only by tying in the failures of "their" foreign policy extravaganzas and "their" ponzi scheming economics- deregulation, "derivitives", trade imbalances, TARP BAILOUTS $3.1TRILLION that "we the people" the middle class and poor have been sucked down into the cesspools of despair over "their" private debt.
Some here want to adopt this debt as if it is our malfeasance but the proofs lay in the pudding. FOLLOW THE MONEY, CALL THEM ON THEIR BLUFFS, AND WATCH THE SNAKES CRAWL AWAY $$$~~~.
Not because they don't believe in their plans because they always leave themselves the option of jumping at a moments notice from left wing radical to right wing zealot- but, because THEY WILL NEVER WAGER "THEIR OWN CAPITAL", OR "TREASURE" IN ANY OF THESE FIGHTS- AS LONG WE REMAIN STUPID ENOUGH TO BE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM TO TAX AND SPEND OURS.
To them nothing and no one exists above the rank of "expendable" commodity.
To them there is but, one goal and that is "total control" and world dominance by ruling elites.
One of my favorite expressions remains to this day-
"What if "they" threw these war partys and nobody showed up for the dances?
NO CAPITAL OUTFLOW = NO PROFITEERING. THEN THEIR NET WORTH BECOMES INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON OUR PROSPERITY AND WELL BEING HERE AT HOME.
Permalink 08/26/10 @ 16:06
Comment from: fred [Visitor]
John: You gotta remember one thing:
Capital, meaning money, has no home. It goes wherever it gets the best return. Period.
Corporate operations and their capitol have been fleeing the United States for decades. It was only possible with the explicit help of the United States Government. Congress and the Senate passed or amended laws which made it all possible. The only big corporations that have invested in America in the past 20 years are the Japanese car makers.
Laws were passed that allowed companies like GM and Chrystler to borrow from their employees retirement funds to -get this- finance the closing and moving of factories to Mexico and Canada. This shit didnt just happen overnight. Ever heard of NAFTA?
Chrystler and GM went bankrupt only because they couldnt pay back the money they "borrowed" from the employee retirement accounts.
How did this happen you say? How can the world biggest car manufacture go bankrupt?
The US Govt ammended the corporate accounting rules. GM-US ships the wholesale parts and then 'buys' the cars manufactured in Canada and Mexico at an inflated cost.. The majority of the money the factories 'earned' stays in Canada and Mexico. Guess who is still the biggest multinational car maker in the world? GM! Their American operations are broke but thriving eveywhere else. Go figure.
The problem is John as I see it, is, we Americans naturally have a nationalistic bend. We Should.
Corporations and money do not. They go where they get the best return. And They Should.
The way I see it though, is our Govt should have a nationalistic bend too. They should be watching out for the INTREST of Americans. Instead, the US GOVT has taken the side of the ex- American Multinationals. Somthing has gotta give.
Capital, meaning money, has no home. It goes wherever it gets the best return. Period.
Corporate operations and their capitol have been fleeing the United States for decades. It was only possible with the explicit help of the United States Government. Congress and the Senate passed or amended laws which made it all possible. The only big corporations that have invested in America in the past 20 years are the Japanese car makers.
Laws were passed that allowed companies like GM and Chrystler to borrow from their employees retirement funds to -get this- finance the closing and moving of factories to Mexico and Canada. This shit didnt just happen overnight. Ever heard of NAFTA?
Chrystler and GM went bankrupt only because they couldnt pay back the money they "borrowed" from the employee retirement accounts.
How did this happen you say? How can the world biggest car manufacture go bankrupt?
The US Govt ammended the corporate accounting rules. GM-US ships the wholesale parts and then 'buys' the cars manufactured in Canada and Mexico at an inflated cost.. The majority of the money the factories 'earned' stays in Canada and Mexico. Guess who is still the biggest multinational car maker in the world? GM! Their American operations are broke but thriving eveywhere else. Go figure.
The problem is John as I see it, is, we Americans naturally have a nationalistic bend. We Should.
Corporations and money do not. They go where they get the best return. And They Should.
The way I see it though, is our Govt should have a nationalistic bend too. They should be watching out for the INTREST of Americans. Instead, the US GOVT has taken the side of the ex- American Multinationals. Somthing has gotta give.
Permalink 08/27/10 @ 00:14
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
fred: Like I've said all along, "make" the corporation exiles and profiteeers pay for all the DOD costs out of pocket. It may reduce their profit margins but, hey that's the cost of doing business.
They might for a while think of going full bore into the merck business but that would surely insure their downfall.
Mercks in spite of their combat expertise have no country and neither would "they" if they decided to disrespect us and the sons and daughters who comprise the US Armed Services with that backhanded tactic.
Most surely if you think about it, they would be preyed upon and disenfranchised almost instantaneously by whichever nation they sought to make their new HQs without our backing. Hit up for every cent of their owed debts, and derivatives that will no longer be backed by the US taxpayer or its own Federal Reserve siphon because, we would have the US TREASURY take over our finance. Let me ask you how long that pipedream would last?
They couldn't or wouldn't go to Europe because Russia and China would just be lying in wait to eat them up in one fell swoop. They wouldn't go to Russia or China because, those folk are just dying to flip the switch on them after all the decades of sanctions and cold war bad blood.
So I ask you, where would or where can all of this $$$ money $$$ go to be assured of their status and security if they knew we were smart enough to play the "hold" card, that held them fully accountable to paying in full and retro for their obligations to our people?
They might for a while think of going full bore into the merck business but that would surely insure their downfall.
Mercks in spite of their combat expertise have no country and neither would "they" if they decided to disrespect us and the sons and daughters who comprise the US Armed Services with that backhanded tactic.
Most surely if you think about it, they would be preyed upon and disenfranchised almost instantaneously by whichever nation they sought to make their new HQs without our backing. Hit up for every cent of their owed debts, and derivatives that will no longer be backed by the US taxpayer or its own Federal Reserve siphon because, we would have the US TREASURY take over our finance. Let me ask you how long that pipedream would last?
They couldn't or wouldn't go to Europe because Russia and China would just be lying in wait to eat them up in one fell swoop. They wouldn't go to Russia or China because, those folk are just dying to flip the switch on them after all the decades of sanctions and cold war bad blood.
So I ask you, where would or where can all of this $$$ money $$$ go to be assured of their status and security if they knew we were smart enough to play the "hold" card, that held them fully accountable to paying in full and retro for their obligations to our people?
Permalink 08/27/10 @ 23:37
Comment from: John--- [Visitor]
fred: Like I've said all along, "make" the corporate "defectors" and "profiteeers" pay for all the DOD costs out of pocket. It may reduce their profit margins but, hey that's the cost of doing business.
They might for a while think of going full bore into the merck business but that would surely insure their downfall.
Mercks in spite of their combat expertise have no country and neither would "they" if they decided to disrespect us and the sons and daughters who comprise the US Armed Services with that backhanded tactic.
Most surely if you think about it, they would be preyed upon and disenfranchised almost instantaneously by whichever nation they sought to make their new HQs without our backing. Hit up for every cent of their owed debts, and derivatives that will no longer be backed by the US taxpayer or its own Federal Reserve siphon because, we would have the US TREASURY take over our finance. Let me ask you how long that pipedream would last?
They couldn't or wouldn't go to Europe because Russia and China would just be lying in wait to eat them up in one fell swoop. They wouldn't go to Russia or China because, those folk are just dying to flip the switch on them after all the decades of sanctions and cold war bad blood.
So I ask you, where would or where can all of this $$$ money $$$ go to be assured of their status and security if they knew we were smart enough to play the "hold" card, that held them fully accountable to paying in full and retro for their obligations to our people?
They might for a while think of going full bore into the merck business but that would surely insure their downfall.
Mercks in spite of their combat expertise have no country and neither would "they" if they decided to disrespect us and the sons and daughters who comprise the US Armed Services with that backhanded tactic.
Most surely if you think about it, they would be preyed upon and disenfranchised almost instantaneously by whichever nation they sought to make their new HQs without our backing. Hit up for every cent of their owed debts, and derivatives that will no longer be backed by the US taxpayer or its own Federal Reserve siphon because, we would have the US TREASURY take over our finance. Let me ask you how long that pipedream would last?
They couldn't or wouldn't go to Europe because Russia and China would just be lying in wait to eat them up in one fell swoop. They wouldn't go to Russia or China because, those folk are just dying to flip the switch on them after all the decades of sanctions and cold war bad blood.
So I ask you, where would or where can all of this $$$ money $$$ go to be assured of their status and security if they knew we were smart enough to play the "hold" card, that held them fully accountable to paying in full and retro for their obligations to our people?
Permalink 08/28/10 @ 10:23
Comment from: Bill F. [Visitor] · http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244897/sources-american-anger-victor-davis-hanson
· http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244897/sources-american-anger-victor-davis-hanson
The Sources of American Anger:
August 27, 2010
Barack Obama, the great healer, is proving to be the most divisive president since Richard Nixon.
Behind the anger over the Arizona immigration mess, the Ground Zero mosque, the economy, and the new directions in foreign policy are some recurring general themes that reverberate in each particular new controversy. In sum, they explain everything from the tea parties to the wholly negative perception of Congress to the slide in presidential popularity.
1. Two sets of rules. The public senses there are two standards in America — one for elite overseers, quite another for the supposedly not-to-be-trusted public. The anger over this hypocrisy surfaces over matters from the trivial to the profound. Sometimes the pique arises because the spread-the-wealth, we-all-have-skin-in-shared-sacrifice presidential sermons don’t apply to those who do the preaching, as in the president’s serial polo-shirted golf excursions or Michelle’s movable feast from Marbella to Martha’s Vineyard.
More profoundly, an Al Gore, a Timothy Geithner, a John Kerry, a John Edwards, a Charles Rangel — the luminaries who call for bigger government, higher taxes, and more green coercion — now appear to the public as disingenuous, living lives in abject contradiction to the utopian bromides they would apply to others. So too with the media. The opinion makers at a failing New York Times, Newsweek, or CBS lost readers and viewers not just because of changing technologies, but because of incessant editorializing in which the educated and affluent, the winners in our system, berated the less educated and less well off, the strugglers in our system, as bigoted or selfish or both.
How, for example, can Americans be asked to pay higher power bills in a recession to subsidize wind power, when the green Kennedy clan worries about windmills marring its vacation-spot view?
2. The bigot card. In reductionist terms, the public now accepts that when particular groups fail to win a 51 percent majority on a particular issue, they resort to invoking racism and prejudice — odd, when candidate Obama promised a new climate of unity and tolerance. Moreover, that disturbing trend has something to do with the president himself, who has injected racial grievance into everything from the Skip Gates controversy to the debate over the Arizona immigration law.
When the open-borders interests, or the gay-marriage advocates, or the adherents of the Ground Zero mosque cannot convince a majority of Americans that their agenda bodes well for the country, they almost instinctively fall back on the charge that America is xenophobic, homophobic, or Islamophobic. Yet the public infers that these charges reflect sour grapes rather than honest analysis: Had Arizona legislators or California voters supported the progressive agenda, then, as with the 2008 Obama victory, they would have been praised in Newsweek and on NPR for their moral sense and compassion. In short, the bigot card has played itself out and is now not much more than a political ploy to win an argument through calumny when logic and persuasion have failed.
3. The law? What law? Americans accept that they cannot pass legislation in violation of the Constitution. But they do not believe that a single judge can nullify the electoral will of millions without good cause. Thus in Arizona and California, there is a sense that judges who favor open borders or gay marriage are willing to use the pretense of constitutional issues to enact such agendas despite their current unpopularity. In a general landscape in which contractual obligations are nullified, as in the Chrysler bailout, and punitive fines are imposed quite arbitrarily, as in the BP cleanup, many believe the Obama administration applies the law in terms of perceived social utility. What is deemed best for the country by an elite few is what the law must be molded and changed to advance.
If there are, for example, not sufficient votes in the Congress to pass amnesty through legislative means, why not bypass federal law through a cabinet officer’s executive fiat?
4. The futility of taxes. We talk of returning to the Clinton income-tax schedules. Yet in the late 1990s, those hikes ended up, along with the Republican cuts in mandates, balancing the budget — without new health-care surcharges, or talk of a VAT, or caps lifted off income subject to Social Security taxes. Not now. The public recognizes that the advocates of higher taxes are not willing to make the sort of across-the-board spending cuts that once succeeded in balancing the budget. In other words, those who will start paying much more of their income to the government in the form of taxes fret that, unlike the 1990s, this time the additional federal revenue won’t balance the budget, and will be all for naught.
Worse still are two corollaries. First, we are in a ceaseless spiral in which each new tax increase will lead to justifications for more spending and thus to still higher taxes. Public employees, fairly or not, have morphed in the public mind from civil servants to pigs at the salary and pension trough, and from disinterested government workers to members of a liberal social movement that will perpetuate a federal agenda of race, class, and gender politics and higher taxes through payback bloc voting at the polls.
Second, there is a growing suspicion that this administration believes in a “gorge the beast” philosophy, the antithesis of Reagan’s “starve the beast.” In other words, redistribution may be a desired end in and of itself. If greater spending demands higher taxes, perhaps that is socially preferable, since income is an arbitrary construct predicated on some sort of social injustice. In turn, the remedy demands that the federal government impose an equality of result to correct the inequities of the cavalier free market that so unfairly pays some too much and others too little.
In short, are our taxes not merely paying for federal expenditures, but also quite justifiably serving to confiscate income that we did not rightfully earn?
5. Disingenuousness. There is also a growing belief that the Obama administration is advancing an agenda that it cannot be fully candid about, because that agenda does not command broad support. As a result, we are habitually asked to believe that what administration appointees or supporters say is not what they really mean, or at least was taken out of context.
Justice Sotomayor did not really mean that wise Latinas make better judges than white males. Van Jones did not really mean that George W. Bush was in on 9/11, or that white youths are more likely to be mass murderers, or that whites are chronic polluters of the ghetto. Eric Holder no more meant that Americans are cowards than one of Anita Dunn’s heroes really is the mass-murdering Mao. We should not believe that the top priority of the head of NASA is to advance Islamic outreach, or that the president himself thinks that police routinely act stupidly, stereotype, or arrest innocent people on their way to get their kids some ice cream. Imam Rauf did not really say that we created bin Laden, or that we kill more innocent Muslims than al-Qaeda kills innocent non-Muslims.
All this dissimulation started with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose mistake was not saying the outrageous things he said — Mr. Obama and the compliant media had contextualized his corpus of hate well enough — but finally insulting the media at the National Press Club. The former was seen as a misdemeanor; the latter proved a felony.
Do Obama supporters, then, reveal their true beliefs only in gaffes and unguarded moments, while filling their official statements and communiqués with pretense?
6. A culpable America? Finally, the public has added up the apology tours, the bowing, and the constant emphasis on race, class, and gender crimes, and concluded that this administration sees America, past and present, as the story of a culpable majority denying noble minorities their rights — period.
In addition, Obama and his crew see America in isolation, without comparison to the wretchedness that exists in so much of the world outside our borders. So a logical disconnect is never quite explained. If America is so xenophobic and culpable, why would millions of Mexicans or Middle Eastern Muslims wish to immigrate here — and what exactly is America doing to attract them that their own countries are not? If Michelle Obama felt that she could not be proud of America before Barack Obama’s accession, was it the free-market system that both provoked her ire and created the capital for her to jet to Marbella?
In other words, with the race/class/gender critique of the Obamians comes very little appreciation of the bounty, freedom, and affluence that they so eagerly embrace. Surely someone in the past — perhaps even white males — must have been doing something right for America to evolve into a place that our present-day critics apparently enjoy.
How will all this play out?
There are many millions of Americans who have a rising stake either in receiving reallocated federal money or in administering its distribution. For nearly half a century, the public schools have been telling millions of children that America’s preeminence is ill-gotten, based largely on exploitation of less fortunate others, here and abroad. So the country is divided, and a president claiming to be the great healer of our age is proving to be the most divisive chief executive since Richard Nixon — and, in the view of an increasing majority of Americans, by his own intent.
August 27, 2010
Barack Obama, the great healer, is proving to be the most divisive president since Richard Nixon.
Behind the anger over the Arizona immigration mess, the Ground Zero mosque, the economy, and the new directions in foreign policy are some recurring general themes that reverberate in each particular new controversy. In sum, they explain everything from the tea parties to the wholly negative perception of Congress to the slide in presidential popularity.
1. Two sets of rules. The public senses there are two standards in America — one for elite overseers, quite another for the supposedly not-to-be-trusted public. The anger over this hypocrisy surfaces over matters from the trivial to the profound. Sometimes the pique arises because the spread-the-wealth, we-all-have-skin-in-shared-sacrifice presidential sermons don’t apply to those who do the preaching, as in the president’s serial polo-shirted golf excursions or Michelle’s movable feast from Marbella to Martha’s Vineyard.
More profoundly, an Al Gore, a Timothy Geithner, a John Kerry, a John Edwards, a Charles Rangel — the luminaries who call for bigger government, higher taxes, and more green coercion — now appear to the public as disingenuous, living lives in abject contradiction to the utopian bromides they would apply to others. So too with the media. The opinion makers at a failing New York Times, Newsweek, or CBS lost readers and viewers not just because of changing technologies, but because of incessant editorializing in which the educated and affluent, the winners in our system, berated the less educated and less well off, the strugglers in our system, as bigoted or selfish or both.
How, for example, can Americans be asked to pay higher power bills in a recession to subsidize wind power, when the green Kennedy clan worries about windmills marring its vacation-spot view?
2. The bigot card. In reductionist terms, the public now accepts that when particular groups fail to win a 51 percent majority on a particular issue, they resort to invoking racism and prejudice — odd, when candidate Obama promised a new climate of unity and tolerance. Moreover, that disturbing trend has something to do with the president himself, who has injected racial grievance into everything from the Skip Gates controversy to the debate over the Arizona immigration law.
When the open-borders interests, or the gay-marriage advocates, or the adherents of the Ground Zero mosque cannot convince a majority of Americans that their agenda bodes well for the country, they almost instinctively fall back on the charge that America is xenophobic, homophobic, or Islamophobic. Yet the public infers that these charges reflect sour grapes rather than honest analysis: Had Arizona legislators or California voters supported the progressive agenda, then, as with the 2008 Obama victory, they would have been praised in Newsweek and on NPR for their moral sense and compassion. In short, the bigot card has played itself out and is now not much more than a political ploy to win an argument through calumny when logic and persuasion have failed.
3. The law? What law? Americans accept that they cannot pass legislation in violation of the Constitution. But they do not believe that a single judge can nullify the electoral will of millions without good cause. Thus in Arizona and California, there is a sense that judges who favor open borders or gay marriage are willing to use the pretense of constitutional issues to enact such agendas despite their current unpopularity. In a general landscape in which contractual obligations are nullified, as in the Chrysler bailout, and punitive fines are imposed quite arbitrarily, as in the BP cleanup, many believe the Obama administration applies the law in terms of perceived social utility. What is deemed best for the country by an elite few is what the law must be molded and changed to advance.
If there are, for example, not sufficient votes in the Congress to pass amnesty through legislative means, why not bypass federal law through a cabinet officer’s executive fiat?
4. The futility of taxes. We talk of returning to the Clinton income-tax schedules. Yet in the late 1990s, those hikes ended up, along with the Republican cuts in mandates, balancing the budget — without new health-care surcharges, or talk of a VAT, or caps lifted off income subject to Social Security taxes. Not now. The public recognizes that the advocates of higher taxes are not willing to make the sort of across-the-board spending cuts that once succeeded in balancing the budget. In other words, those who will start paying much more of their income to the government in the form of taxes fret that, unlike the 1990s, this time the additional federal revenue won’t balance the budget, and will be all for naught.
Worse still are two corollaries. First, we are in a ceaseless spiral in which each new tax increase will lead to justifications for more spending and thus to still higher taxes. Public employees, fairly or not, have morphed in the public mind from civil servants to pigs at the salary and pension trough, and from disinterested government workers to members of a liberal social movement that will perpetuate a federal agenda of race, class, and gender politics and higher taxes through payback bloc voting at the polls.
Second, there is a growing suspicion that this administration believes in a “gorge the beast” philosophy, the antithesis of Reagan’s “starve the beast.” In other words, redistribution may be a desired end in and of itself. If greater spending demands higher taxes, perhaps that is socially preferable, since income is an arbitrary construct predicated on some sort of social injustice. In turn, the remedy demands that the federal government impose an equality of result to correct the inequities of the cavalier free market that so unfairly pays some too much and others too little.
In short, are our taxes not merely paying for federal expenditures, but also quite justifiably serving to confiscate income that we did not rightfully earn?
5. Disingenuousness. There is also a growing belief that the Obama administration is advancing an agenda that it cannot be fully candid about, because that agenda does not command broad support. As a result, we are habitually asked to believe that what administration appointees or supporters say is not what they really mean, or at least was taken out of context.
Justice Sotomayor did not really mean that wise Latinas make better judges than white males. Van Jones did not really mean that George W. Bush was in on 9/11, or that white youths are more likely to be mass murderers, or that whites are chronic polluters of the ghetto. Eric Holder no more meant that Americans are cowards than one of Anita Dunn’s heroes really is the mass-murdering Mao. We should not believe that the top priority of the head of NASA is to advance Islamic outreach, or that the president himself thinks that police routinely act stupidly, stereotype, or arrest innocent people on their way to get their kids some ice cream. Imam Rauf did not really say that we created bin Laden, or that we kill more innocent Muslims than al-Qaeda kills innocent non-Muslims.
All this dissimulation started with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose mistake was not saying the outrageous things he said — Mr. Obama and the compliant media had contextualized his corpus of hate well enough — but finally insulting the media at the National Press Club. The former was seen as a misdemeanor; the latter proved a felony.
Do Obama supporters, then, reveal their true beliefs only in gaffes and unguarded moments, while filling their official statements and communiqués with pretense?
6. A culpable America? Finally, the public has added up the apology tours, the bowing, and the constant emphasis on race, class, and gender crimes, and concluded that this administration sees America, past and present, as the story of a culpable majority denying noble minorities their rights — period.
In addition, Obama and his crew see America in isolation, without comparison to the wretchedness that exists in so much of the world outside our borders. So a logical disconnect is never quite explained. If America is so xenophobic and culpable, why would millions of Mexicans or Middle Eastern Muslims wish to immigrate here — and what exactly is America doing to attract them that their own countries are not? If Michelle Obama felt that she could not be proud of America before Barack Obama’s accession, was it the free-market system that both provoked her ire and created the capital for her to jet to Marbella?
In other words, with the race/class/gender critique of the Obamians comes very little appreciation of the bounty, freedom, and affluence that they so eagerly embrace. Surely someone in the past — perhaps even white males — must have been doing something right for America to evolve into a place that our present-day critics apparently enjoy.
How will all this play out?
There are many millions of Americans who have a rising stake either in receiving reallocated federal money or in administering its distribution. For nearly half a century, the public schools have been telling millions of children that America’s preeminence is ill-gotten, based largely on exploitation of less fortunate others, here and abroad. So the country is divided, and a president claiming to be the great healer of our age is proving to be the most divisive chief executive since Richard Nixon — and, in the view of an increasing majority of Americans, by his own intent.
Permalink 08/30/10 @ 19:58
Comment from: Sonny Yeske [Visitor] · http://proactolreview.sosblog.com/The-first-blog-b1/Looking-For-a-Proactol-Review-b1-p2.htm
· http://proactolreview.sosblog.com/The-first-blog-b1/Looking-For-a-Proactol-Review-b1-p2.htm
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Permalink 10/13/10 @ 11:42
Comment from: tokay gecko malaysia [Visitor] · http://tokaygeckoprice.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-is-tokay-gecko.html
· http://tokaygeckoprice.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-is-tokay-gecko.html
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